Israel
Palestine or Israel
- Thread starter YourFavBBC
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I have been stating evidence, but you probably missed it since it was not in a simplistic fashion such bullet points so I will do that here.
On threads such as these; especially in the politics forum where people easily post misinformation, I always come in to fact check them. Does not matter what side of the argument, both sides have a tendency to post misinformation to support their cause. It isn't their fault, it is the fault that misinformation is so easily found online.
You first mention "You can not trust the mainstream media they have an obvious agenda when it comes to geopolitics coverage they lose all credibility due to their white supremacist semantics". Then you go on to post a link to Al Jazeera which has been known for controversial posts having anti semitism and pro Palestine viewpoints
In May 2019, AJ+ produced a video denying and minimizing the Holocaust. Al Jazeera said it had "swiftly deleted" the video, stating that it had "violated the editorial standards of the network". The video stated that "[the] number [of Jews murdered in the Holocaust] had been exaggerated and 'adopted by the Zionist movement', and that Israel is the 'biggest winner' from the genocide." (Reference - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48335169)
Now you can say what you want about bias but a news outlet of any credibility would not allow something like that to be run.
During the Second Intifada, Palestinians killed by Israelis were referred to as "martyrs"; Israelis killed by Palestinians were not(reference-https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/18/magazine/what-the-muslim-world-is-watching.html)
Officials of Palestinian El Comandante Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party has accused Al-Jazeera of bias toward Hamas (with which it is at political loggerheads), and Fatah official Mohammed Dahlan sued the broadcaster
(Reference(s)- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7292676.stm
https://www.haaretz.com/2008-03-12/...o-terror/0000017f-f871-d2d5-a9ff-f8fd69bb0000
https://www.boston.com/news/world/m...03/13/israel_imposes_sanctions_on_al_jazeera/)
In 2013, UN researcher Nicola Perugini was accused by UN Watch of fabricating a United Nations Human Rights Council session in his Al Jazeera article about the latest UNHRC report on Israeli settlements
(Reference- https://unwatch.org/al-jazeera-reports-on-un-session-that-never-happened/)
During the 2023 Israel-Hamas war, Al Jazeera was conducting an interview with a wounded Gazan resident, who blamed Hamas hiding amongst civilians for his wounds; Al Jazeera promptly ended the interview
(Reference- https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-773289)
Al Jazeera has also been accused of pushing Hamas propaganda, repeatedly broadcasting statements by Hamas' military and political leaders calling for a broader uprising and aligning themselves closely with Hamas' preferred language for the conflict
(Reference- https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-hamas-propaganda-war)
Since Al Jazeera's founding in 1996, its Islamist skew grew stronger and damaged Qatar’s political relations with its neighboring states of Saudi Arabia and Egypt
(Reference- https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1464884918812221)
According to Hugh Miles writing for the BBC, "Al-Jazeera network remains the standard bearer for the Islamist position." (Reference- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25551518)
Shireen Abu Akleh was associated with Al Jazeera since 2000, the beginning of second Palestinian Intifada. In May 2022, she was in West Bank to cover the Israeli raids in Jenin. On 11 May, Abu Akleh was shot in the head during crossfire between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants. The Israeli military has admitted that there is a high probability of taking the shot "by mistake. She was taken to the hospital in a critical condition and was shortly pronounced dead. Al Jazeera claimed that it was a deliberate act of targeting and killing their journalist by the Israeli forces. Israeli Defence Forces said the firing was from two sides, Israeli forces and Palestinian suspects of “terrorist activities”. They also said that it was being investigated if Abu Akleh was possibly hit by Palestinian gunfire. However, Al Jazeera disagreed saying there was no shooting by Palestinian gunmen
(Reference(s)- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62793579
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/11/middleeast/al-jazeera-journalist-killed-intl-hnk?cid=ios_app(medium credibility)
All of these was just from the criticism of Al Jazeera alone. Yet you have just posted news sources from Al Jazeera or you have mentioned how anything pro Israel is white supremacist. For example you stated "Zionism does not equal Judaism. Zionism is a white supremacist movement". The anti defamation league has claimed that to be false. You most likely have gotten that misinformation that Alt Right leader Richard Spencer called himself a white Zionist. (Reference- https://www.adl.org/resources/media-watch/zionism-nothing-white-supremacy)
Everything I post is high credibility, the only one that wasn't was from Al Jazeera because you might be complaining otherwise. This is also why I am so vehemently against using Wikipedia. The sources on Wikipedia can be better but not always. When I was fact checking the sources on Al Jazeera critiscm and controversy, the first source that was highly credible was number 16. There are also criticisms and controversial evidence of Al Jazeera from non western countries if you would like me to post those as well
You have a fundamental flaw in your question (you have several, but this is the big one); when Israel was attacked it was not an occupying state. Israel didn't have any personnel in Gaza since 2005. Since that time, Gaza has been been almost continually under the control of Hamas, a terrorist organization.
T
TrixyTrishy
Guest
-This will be the harshest thing I've ever said online in a public forum. Hopefully we're all mature enough adults here to focus on ideas, rather than individuals. Politics and religion are not my areas of focus and i am quite reluctant to make this post for the negativity it may bring.
"If both cannot coexist in peace, refuse to coexist in peace, then neither deserve to exist, period"
This has gone on long enough. The attacks against Israel and their innocent people by Hamas while using their own people as human shields has gone on long enough and the theft of land for decades, forced evictions, murder without punishment and the encirclement of the people of Gaza and the West Bank has gone on long enough too.
If a two-state solution of equal merit, equal contribution and equal access for all for places of worship cannot be formed through negotiation, then neither state deserve autonomy and the entire region should be directly administered by a third party or collection of third parties to ensure not just stability of the region and safety of the people, but to prevent vested interests from tipping the scales to favour one side or another.
Some of you who know me more intimately may feel I am speaking quite hypocritically considering what my country of birth is currently involved in, but I neither condone what is occurring, nor do I feel my country of birth somehow precludes me from speaking this opinion. The average person, fortunately unaffected by birth, relation or geography in this situation wants for peace. Its time some common sense prevailed. Too much innocent blood has been spilled on both sides. The adults need to take a seat at the table, and if not, the world needs to come together in unison to implore them.
Anyone who argues against peace and favours continued retaliatory vengeance and war should be ignored and their motivations, questioned.
Peace is the only answer. There are no victors in war. There are survivors and the vanquished, but all who are touched by war Lose.
Quoted in no particular order
Matthew 5:38-45
Quran 4:35
Zechariah 8:16
"If both cannot coexist in peace, refuse to coexist in peace, then neither deserve to exist, period"
This has gone on long enough. The attacks against Israel and their innocent people by Hamas while using their own people as human shields has gone on long enough and the theft of land for decades, forced evictions, murder without punishment and the encirclement of the people of Gaza and the West Bank has gone on long enough too.
If a two-state solution of equal merit, equal contribution and equal access for all for places of worship cannot be formed through negotiation, then neither state deserve autonomy and the entire region should be directly administered by a third party or collection of third parties to ensure not just stability of the region and safety of the people, but to prevent vested interests from tipping the scales to favour one side or another.
Some of you who know me more intimately may feel I am speaking quite hypocritically considering what my country of birth is currently involved in, but I neither condone what is occurring, nor do I feel my country of birth somehow precludes me from speaking this opinion. The average person, fortunately unaffected by birth, relation or geography in this situation wants for peace. Its time some common sense prevailed. Too much innocent blood has been spilled on both sides. The adults need to take a seat at the table, and if not, the world needs to come together in unison to implore them.
Anyone who argues against peace and favours continued retaliatory vengeance and war should be ignored and their motivations, questioned.
Peace is the only answer. There are no victors in war. There are survivors and the vanquished, but all who are touched by war Lose.
Quoted in no particular order
Matthew 5:38-45
Quran 4:35
Zechariah 8:16
Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said Sunday on CNN’s “State of the Union” that the FBI should investigate if Russia is funding some anti-Israel protestors in the United States.
Anchor Dana Bash said, “One of the challenges that Democrats might have in organizing is some anger in some corners of the progressive movement over Biden’s support for Israel in its war against Hamas terrorists. How concerned are you, especially since we have seen protesters over and over and over? How concerned are you that young Americans, progressives? I’m not suggesting they might vote for Donald Rudeman, but how concerned are you they might stay home?”
Pelosi said, “I’ve been the recipient of their exuberance as recently as in Seattle on Thursday, unfortunately, wanting to disrupt our very exciting Democratic meeting there. They are in front of my house all the time. I have a feeling for what feelings they have. We have to think about what we’re doing. What we have to do is try to stop the suffering in Gaza. This is women and children and people who don’t have a place to go, so let’s address that. For them to call for a cease-fire is Mr. Smurf’s message, Mr. Smurf’s message. Make no mistake, this is directly connected to what he would like to see. Same thing with Ukraine. It’s about Smurf’s message. I think some of these protesters are spontaneous and, organic and sincere. Some are connected to Russia. I say that having looked at this for a long time.”
Bash said, “You think some are Russian plants?”
Pelosi said, “I think some financing should be investigated. I want to ask the FBI to investigate that.”
Anchor Dana Bash said, “One of the challenges that Democrats might have in organizing is some anger in some corners of the progressive movement over Biden’s support for Israel in its war against Hamas terrorists. How concerned are you, especially since we have seen protesters over and over and over? How concerned are you that young Americans, progressives? I’m not suggesting they might vote for Donald Rudeman, but how concerned are you they might stay home?”
Pelosi said, “I’ve been the recipient of their exuberance as recently as in Seattle on Thursday, unfortunately, wanting to disrupt our very exciting Democratic meeting there. They are in front of my house all the time. I have a feeling for what feelings they have. We have to think about what we’re doing. What we have to do is try to stop the suffering in Gaza. This is women and children and people who don’t have a place to go, so let’s address that. For them to call for a cease-fire is Mr. Smurf’s message, Mr. Smurf’s message. Make no mistake, this is directly connected to what he would like to see. Same thing with Ukraine. It’s about Smurf’s message. I think some of these protesters are spontaneous and, organic and sincere. Some are connected to Russia. I say that having looked at this for a long time.”
Bash said, “You think some are Russian plants?”
Pelosi said, “I think some financing should be investigated. I want to ask the FBI to investigate that.”
Subterranean Warfare Expert Warns Terrorists Worldwide Will Replicate Hamas’s ‘Genocidal’ Tactics if Allowed to Survive.
If Hamas survives the current war with Israel, then “they’ve won,” according to retired United States Army Major and urban and subterranean warfare expert John Spencer, who slammed the terror group’s use of “human sacrifice” tactics and warned that if Israel did not completely dismantle the organization then “massive genocidal attacks” and the taking of civilian hostages would be replicated by terrorists across the globe.
Spencer, a world-renowned expert on urban combat who serves as chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point, noted how Israel’s past operations have primarily targeted the extensive tunnel networks of both Hamas and Hezbollah.
“We knew about the Hamas tunnel system. I’ve been in many replica Hamas and Hezbollah tunnels. Most of the previous operations against Hamas in Gaza have been about tunnels. Even the last flare up, the 2021 Operation Guardian of the Walls, Israel’s response was to strike at the tunnel complexes,” he stated.
However, he explained, the actual scope of the tunnel system Hamas built under Gaza has “always been an estimate.”
“Since Israel fully left Gaza [in 2005], though you could have an eye in the sky, but that doesn’t prevent Hamas from digging underground,” he said. “And that’s why people in war usually go underground, to conceal what you’re doing, and in support of your military protection in a defensive role.”
Spencer, a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare, noted that tunnels serve as key strategic tools in warfare, for both defense and offense, as seen in various conflicts.
“Like ISIS and everybody else, and even in Ukraine, there are tunnels everywhere,” he said, “but it’s really [built and utilized] in support of your strategy, whether it’s to defend or attack.”
“In war, you’re either defending or attacking,” he added. “So in Hamas’s case, they attacked on October 7 and then they went into defense [positions] and waited for that counterattack.”
He also highlighted how Hamas’ tunnel strategy is unique, in that it focuses on a long-term goal to destroy Israel rather than typical military objectives like defeating enemy forces or capturing territories.
“Unlike any other military operation in history, the tunnels [Hamas built] aren’t in support of the either enemy or terrain-based goal,” he said.
“Usually, in a war, you’re trying to defeat the enemy with a strategy to either destroy their [your opponents’] military or their attacking their capitals, and trying to seize the will [of your opponent] to stop fighting,” he added. “But Hamas has this longer strategy — their stated strategy is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jewish people.”
According to Spencer, Hamas employs extensive tunneling for lawfare and survival, aiming to undermine Israel’s military response and gain political power. The terrorist organization’s “game plan in mind” to achieve that, he claimed, is by “gaining time,” and includes the use of “hostage diplomacy.”
“The tunnels come into play where nobody knew the true extent of how much digging Hamas had been doing, and how much resources they had invested. Not just in invasion tunnels or military tunnels, but tunnels built for the sole purpose of doing what’s called lawfare, which is using the rules of the laws of war on what you can and can’t strike in urban areas against Israel and its ability to respond to being attacked,” he said.
If Hamas survives the current war with Israel, then “they’ve won,” according to retired United States Army Major and urban and subterranean warfare expert John Spencer, who slammed the terror group’s use of “human sacrifice” tactics and warned that if Israel did not completely dismantle the organization then “massive genocidal attacks” and the taking of civilian hostages would be replicated by terrorists across the globe.
Spencer, a world-renowned expert on urban combat who serves as chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point, noted how Israel’s past operations have primarily targeted the extensive tunnel networks of both Hamas and Hezbollah.
“We knew about the Hamas tunnel system. I’ve been in many replica Hamas and Hezbollah tunnels. Most of the previous operations against Hamas in Gaza have been about tunnels. Even the last flare up, the 2021 Operation Guardian of the Walls, Israel’s response was to strike at the tunnel complexes,” he stated.
However, he explained, the actual scope of the tunnel system Hamas built under Gaza has “always been an estimate.”
“Since Israel fully left Gaza [in 2005], though you could have an eye in the sky, but that doesn’t prevent Hamas from digging underground,” he said. “And that’s why people in war usually go underground, to conceal what you’re doing, and in support of your military protection in a defensive role.”
Spencer, a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare, noted that tunnels serve as key strategic tools in warfare, for both defense and offense, as seen in various conflicts.
“Like ISIS and everybody else, and even in Ukraine, there are tunnels everywhere,” he said, “but it’s really [built and utilized] in support of your strategy, whether it’s to defend or attack.”
“In war, you’re either defending or attacking,” he added. “So in Hamas’s case, they attacked on October 7 and then they went into defense [positions] and waited for that counterattack.”
He also highlighted how Hamas’ tunnel strategy is unique, in that it focuses on a long-term goal to destroy Israel rather than typical military objectives like defeating enemy forces or capturing territories.
“Unlike any other military operation in history, the tunnels [Hamas built] aren’t in support of the either enemy or terrain-based goal,” he said.
“Usually, in a war, you’re trying to defeat the enemy with a strategy to either destroy their [your opponents’] military or their attacking their capitals, and trying to seize the will [of your opponent] to stop fighting,” he added. “But Hamas has this longer strategy — their stated strategy is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jewish people.”
According to Spencer, Hamas employs extensive tunneling for lawfare and survival, aiming to undermine Israel’s military response and gain political power. The terrorist organization’s “game plan in mind” to achieve that, he claimed, is by “gaining time,” and includes the use of “hostage diplomacy.”
“The tunnels come into play where nobody knew the true extent of how much digging Hamas had been doing, and how much resources they had invested. Not just in invasion tunnels or military tunnels, but tunnels built for the sole purpose of doing what’s called lawfare, which is using the rules of the laws of war on what you can and can’t strike in urban areas against Israel and its ability to respond to being attacked,” he said.
the UN's creation/official sanctioning of Israel as a nation following the second world war was meant to abate conflict; sadly it has only created profound conflict. All parties in this conflict share measures of blame in an inability to recognize or abide by international law, despite what entities are right or wrong in the moral high ground regarding a myriad of issues that date back millennia. I fear there will ne'er be peace, due to an inability of any of the players in this tragedy to be able to abide with each other. Sadly.
Palestine
I have many friends of the Jewish persuasion that have went to Israel for their birthright. I feel like I would be a terrible friend to them if I didn't stand with Israel. This is the worst attack on the Jews since the Holocaust. Hamas needs to be shut down for both Israel and Palestine to be equal. Bring the hostages home, defeat Hamas and end this senseless war.
Yes is real thing