why was the american gov so "evil" during the cold war

The question explains why I tell you that you look no communism with Cold War lens... I'm not in favour of governments... I don't think that communism can be forced on people eather... communism has nothing to do with USSR politics during Cold War, and I don't think that can be achived with tanks. On the contrary, in order to have communism you need to have liberation from the state... if you don't trust me on this subject, read, read Engels's "Origin of the Family, Private property and the State" and Lenin's "The State and the Revolution", you might find some new view on communism. I'm in politics almost 10 years, I was not born communist, I was anti-communist liberal, hated socialism as I saw it as repression and as brainwashing. I become communist when by accident while researching Russian Avant-guarde Art discovered that what I have learned about Lenin in school had nothing to do with Lenin. Than I decided to read Marx's "Manifesto of the Communist Party"... it was mind blowing, I realised that what I'm reading had nothing to do with what I've learned about communism... than I started to read more and research history of the October Revolution, I was shocked by many things... I considered my parents for brainwashed by Tito's propaganda when they spoke for SFRY before I actually found myself ...

What countries? No countries, countries will never do such thing. Communism is anti-patriotic and anti-state, that is the bases. Marx states: "The workers have no country". In order to have socialism you need to fight against countries's governments.

It will happen in the same way as in Russia in 1917, by the working class. You think the USSR was created by forcing people? Or SFRY or China... no the people supported the Revolution. Revolutions happen because of the contradictions of capitalism and the relations in which workers are forced. In order to liberate its self from wage labour and exploitation the working class has to end capitalist relations. It is how societies develops, systems are not eternal things they are fazes in history.Is the people that does the revolution not Parties of governments. I don't know how you imagine Bolsheviks or the Revolution in 1917, but Bolsheviks were not big Party in February 1917, 8.000 people in country of more than 80 millions. There was no bloody revolution in October, there was no resistance to Bolsheviks taking power. There is joke that more people died when Eisenstein filmed "October: 10 Days that Shock the World" than when the Winter Palace was taken actually. 20 foregin armies were on the side of the Whites in the Civil War, the Red Army was not equiped... it is imposible to win a war against 20 armies if you don't have support of the people...

I think Revolution is the order of the day in USA, and from there it will spread in Europe.
You are not taking into account modern times or thinking. Communism is an antiquated philosophy. Sure a few college kids here in the U.S are all.' I am communist' it's just a phase There are probably a few thousand self identified communists around . But there are millions of Democrats and Republicans. And the youth they don't need a 100 plus year old ideology . Information spreads in seconds . Real time events can be viewed online. And although we do have a gap in internet access between the poor and middle class cell phones are cheap with pay as you go plans. And it is the same in other parts of the world as well. Maybe even in your country.
 
You are not taking into account modern times or thinking. Communism is an antiquated philosophy. Sure a few college kids here in the U.S are all.' I am communist' it's just a phase There are probably a few thousand self identified communists around . But there are millions of Democrats and Republicans. And the youth they don't need a 100 plus year old ideology . Information spreads in seconds . Real time events can be viewed online. And although we do have a gap in internet access between the poor and middle class cell phones are cheap with pay as you go plans. And it is the same in other parts of the world as well. Maybe even in your country.

That makes it even better since the working class can organize better...
 
That makes it even better since the working class can organize better...
Not really. Because although.poor people years ago needed an idea like communism to organize around it isn't necessary now. People of all economic backgrounds with similar ideals organize online. The BLM protests in America last summer organized online . So was the attack on our Capitol. Some believe they can change the system by protest and law. Some believe they can by force. There is no room for communism in this equation. Both sides believe they are going to change America for the better . No dead man needed to tell them how .
 
Not really. Because although.poor people years ago needed an idea like communism to organize around it isn't necessary now. People of all economic backgrounds with similar ideals organize online. The BLM protests in America last summer organized online . So was the attack on our Capitol. Some believe they can change the system by protest and law. Some believe they can by force. There is no room for communism in this equation. Both sides believe they are going to change America for the better . No dead man needed to tell them how .

This is why I tell you that u don't understand me, or not even try... don't know how u imagine communism and "telling" but the fact is that society is divided in classes with their interests... and this shows only your liberal understanding of politics as idealistic vision... is not to ideas, but to interst and material condidions
 
This is why I tell you that u don't understand me, or not even try... don't know how u imagine communism and "telling" but the fact is that society is divided in classes with their interests... and this shows only your liberal understanding of politics as idealistic vision... is not to ideas, but to interst and material condidions
You still haven't explained how communism is going to rise again. Because you can't. Even you know you are spouting nonsense.
 
You still haven't explained how communism is going to rise again. Because you can't. Even you know you are spouting nonsense.

Man, I've wrote pages of explainig you what is communism, I can't write you a whole study on a forum, read what i sugested if u r interested... I have life, can't write you basic things you keep ignoring...
 
Man, I've wrote pages of explainig you what is communism, I can't write you a whole study on a forum, read what i sugested if u r interested... I have life, can't write you basic things you keep ignoring...
That isn't what I asked you . What I asked you was why and how do you think communism will have a comeback ? You have said a bunch of shit.But still haven't answered the question.
 
That isn't what I asked you . What I asked you was why and how do you think communism will have a comeback ? You have said a bunch of shit.But still haven't answered the question.

Because communism is not what you think, is not separated from the relations in production, and although capitalism has changed to certain extend, relations in production have not changed, so the base is not so different than 200 year ago and history repeat itself. It will happen when people through their experience realize that changing the law is not change which Biden will deliver because he can't solve the main problems.
 
Don't understand you, you suggest that I say labour is not commodity? The question is not what it "expresses the view that people should not be treated like inanimate commodities" but what it is. Labour is not same as humans, labour power is commodified in the process of capitalist production. Or your argument that labor is not commodity is based on some writing in some document? It doesn't prove that labour is not commodity the fact that someone expressed wishes in founding document. Is labor on the market? Is is used by capitalists? Is it soled by workers? So it is something that is traded... what is that if not commodity?
You say labour is a commodity as per Marx I quoted the preamble of the international labour organization. This is from the wiki of the International Labour Organization: The International Labour Organization (ILO) is a United Nations agency whose mandate is to advance social and economic justice through setting international labour standards.[1] Founded in October 1919 under the League of Nations, it is the first and oldest specialised agency of the UN. The ILO has 187 member states: 186 out of 193 UN member states plus the Cook Islands. It is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, with around 40 field offices around the world, and employs some 2,700 staff from over 150 nations, of whom 900 work in technical cooperation programmes and projects.

Looking at the members of the ILO, both Czech Republic and China are on there. Even the Soviet Union was a part of the organization. Now under the Russian Federation. So why would all these nations be in an organization that states in their preamble that labour is not a commodity?
 
I have a question for you .How exactly do you see a rise in communism occurring again? It seems the world has moved on and as I said no governments even believe in the ideology anymore .If they ever did. Without countries spreading it by force or people choosing it over their current form of government how exactly do you see this new revolution happening ?
Do you not see capitalist countries forcing free trade on weak nations? Who picks the cashews, the cacao, the coffee, the berries, makes the clothes? Poor workers. what is being slowly destroyed as we unnecessarily ship all these goods thousands of kilometers by fossil fuels? The earth, and who bears the brunt of that destruction? The poor. Who profits from war? Capitalists. Capitalism is built on exploitation of workers and the environment. Just because the left is weak now doesn't change the fact, communist analysis is correct. Your argument seems to be that since you can't or refuse to imagine a better world, we must demonstrate that this is the best we can get. And come on, the CPUSA played a role in pushing Roosevelt's government to implement policy. And many CPUSA members were horrified by Stalin. These members were also muzzled by those "defending freedom".
You are not taking into account modern times or thinking. Communism is an antiquated philosophy. Sure a few college kids here in the U.S are all.' I am communist' it's just a phase There are probably a few thousand self identified communists around . But there are millions of Democrats and Republicans. And the youth they don't need a 100 plus year old ideology . Information spreads in seconds . Real time events can be viewed online. And although we do have a gap in internet access between the poor and middle class cell phones are cheap with pay as you go plans. And it is the same in other parts of the world as well. Maybe even in your country.
There are not millions of Democrats and Republicans. There may be millions of voters, but surely not members in the sense someone might be a member of the communist party.
 
Do you not see capitalist countries forcing free trade on weak nations? Who picks the cashews, the cacao, the coffee, the berries, makes the clothes? Poor workers. what is being slowly destroyed as we unnecessarily ship all these goods thousands of kilometers by fossil fuels? The earth, and who bears the brunt of that destruction? The poor. Who profits from war? Capitalists. Capitalism is built on exploitation of workers and the environment. Just because the left is weak now doesn't change the fact, communist analysis is correct. Your argument seems to be that since you can't or refuse to imagine a better world, we must demonstrate that this is the best we can get. And come on, the CPUSA played a role in pushing Roosevelt's government to implement policy. And many CPUSA members were horrified by Stalin. These members were also muzzled by those "defending freedom".

There are not millions of Democrats and Republicans. There may be millions of voters, but surely not members in the sense someone might be a member of the communist party.
You still haven't explained how communism is going to become a thing again. Yes there are millions of Democrats and Republicans. We are a country of more than 300 million people not some piss ant balkan state .No it isn't like being a member of the communist party .This is America .You don't have to be a registered member of anything. I said the CPUSA had some influence before WW2. When was Roosevelt El Comandante? The CPUSA worked for Russia after WW2. It doesn't matter if they all did or not . They took a pro Soviet position and spied for them.They were so anti American they opposed glastnost publicly and lost their funding from the USSR. You know nothing about America stop acting as if you do .
 
Do you not see capitalist countries forcing free trade on weak nations? Who picks the cashews, the cacao, the coffee, the berries, makes the clothes? Poor workers. what is being slowly destroyed as we unnecessarily ship all these goods thousands of kilometers by fossil fuels? The earth, and who bears the brunt of that destruction? The poor. Who profits from war? Capitalists. Capitalism is built on exploitation of workers and the environment. Just because the left is weak now doesn't change the fact, communist analysis is correct. Your argument seems to be that since you can't or refuse to imagine a better world, we must demonstrate that this is the best we can get. And come on, the CPUSA played a role in pushing Roosevelt's government to implement policy. And many CPUSA members were horrified by Stalin. These members were also muzzled by those "defending freedom".

There are not millions of Democrats and Republicans. There may be millions of voters, but surely not members in the sense someone might be a member of the communist party.
I should clarify since you are not American.We do need to register to vote in all states. And in some states you do need to state your political affiliation.But you do not have to vote for that party's candidate .There are 30 states where you do need to state your political preference. 161 million voted in the 2020 election for Preside.nt .So in case you have a problem with math that means there are millions of Democrats and Republicans.As well as millions or independents.
 
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Because communism is not what you think, is not separated from the relations in production, and although capitalism has changed to certain extend, relations in production have not changed, so the base is not so different than 200 year ago and history repeat itself. It will happen when people through their experience realize that changing the law is not change which Biden will deliver because he can't solve the main problems.
How will that happen? How do you think that is possible? The base is very different than 200 hundred years ago dude .It's a whole new world.And one that in America means both sides left and right are even more dug in than ever . You don't seem to understand that our left isn't what the right says it is.Or what your local media says it is. It is a broad coalition of voters. Some are pretty far left by American standards anyway , but most are slightly left or center left . There will be no communist uprising because most on the left want to reform our brand or capitalism not get rid of it. We want less corporate tax breaks .Not to get rid of private corporations just that they pay their fair share of taxes .We want the wealthy to pay more because they do not pay what they should percentage wise compared to the rest of us We then want to take that money and improve infrastructure, make college more affordable , expand healthcare , help our poor move up in society with job and education programs .That isn't everything but a small snapshot . See the majority doesn't want to destroy capitalism .And they never will. It isn't the 1800's or even the 20th century. It is 2021 .We do not want to destroy our system and trade it for another We want to make it more fair and balanced.
 
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You say labour is a commodity as per Marx I quoted the preamble of the international labour organization. This is from the wiki of the International Labour Organization: The International Labour Organization (ILO) is a United Nations agency whose mandate is to advance social and economic justice through setting international labour standards.[1] Founded in October 1919 under the League of Nations, it is the first and oldest specialised agency of the UN. The ILO has 187 member states: 186 out of 193 UN member states plus the Cook Islands. It is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, with around 40 field offices around the world, and employs some 2,700 staff from over 150 nations, of whom 900 work in technical cooperation programmes and projects.

Looking at the members of the ILO, both Czech Republic and China are on there. Even the Soviet Union was a part of the organization. Now under the Russian Federation. So why would all these nations be in an organization that states in their preamble that labour is not a commodity?

Again the same question. Does paper and what someone expressed is by default reality? What does make commodity a commodity if not the fact that i traded on a market? If labour is traded on labour market in commodity production than it is commodity. Your argument is just abstraction of reality... the UN has declared that they have polity for human rights, Israel is member state, but yet in Gaza you have ethnic cleansing... Turkey is member state, but yet Kurdish people are fucked up... I can give you long list of this... not to forget China has concentration camps for Muslims, a member state of UN... a statement on paper is not reality by default, sorry, this is legalist "argument" and nothing more...
 
How will that happen? How do you think that is possible? The base is very different than 200 hundred years ago dude .It's a whole new world.And one that in America means both sides left and right are even more dug in than ever . You don't seem to understand that our left isn't what the right says it is.Or what your local media says it is. It is a broad coalition of voters. Some are pretty far left by American standards anyway , but most are slightly left or center left . There will be no communist uprising because most on the left want to reform our brand or capitalism not get rid of it. We want less corporate tax breaks .Not to get rid of private corporations just that they pay their fair share of taxes .We want the wealthy to pay more because they do not pay what they should percentage wise compared to the rest of us We then want to take that money and improve infrastructure, make college more affordable , expand healthcare , help our poor move up in society with job and education programs .That isn't everything but a small snapshot . See the majority doesn't want to destroy capitalism .And they never will. It isn't the 1800's or even the 20th century. It is 2021 .We do not want to destroy our system and trade it for another We want to make it more fair and balanced.

Dude, I'm in International which has section in USA, my "information" don't come from the right or the media in my country... the media in my country don't care for the left in USA, they care only for official policies of the USA, there was not much about BLM or Capitol in the medias here I follow politics... the USA is not center of the world, the sun is...

I think not only it is possible, but for sure it will happen because of the reformist left. I know what you want, but what you want is science fiction and is not something really new, Marx have written about it in 1848, but you haven't read and have no idea how much things haven't changed. You want capitalism without its exploitation... sorry dude capitalist can't pay their "fair share" because their profits are dependent on not paying it. You can reform capitalism in times of boom, like after WWII, but you can't in crisis, and when this proves during the policies of the left, than things will change quite rapidly... that is why I said that contradictions of capitalism leads to revolution, not propaganda...
 
Dude, I'm in International which has section in USA, my "information" don't come from the right or the media in my country... the media in my country don't care for the left in USA, they care only for official policies of the USA, there was not much about BLM or Capitol in the medias here I follow politics... the USA is not center of the world, the sun is...

I think not only it is possible, but for sure it will happen because of the reformist left. I know what you want, but what you want is science fiction and is not something really new, Marx have written about it in 1848, but you haven't read and have no idea how much things haven't changed. You want capitalism without its exploitation... sorry dude capitalist can't pay their "fair share" because their profits are dependent on not paying it. You can reform capitalism in times of boom, like after WWII, but you can't in crisis, and when this proves during the policies of the left, than things will change quite rapidly... that is why I said that contradictions of capitalism leads to revolution, not propaganda...
All I can say is it's good to have hopes and dreams .You keep on waiting for that revolution if it makes you happy .You will be an old man in a bar 30 years from now talking about the same thing . And it still will not have happened.
 
A commodity is something tangible such as paper copper coffee etc. Labour is not tangible. Trading labour for labour is slavery and slavery has been outlawed for quite some time now. Unless you mean labour as in labour market or job market. In that case it is extremely archaic of you to say "trade labour on labour market". The wording and verbiage makes it seem like you are pro slavery. Labour camps and the like. I could be completely wrong but your way of thinking is extremely out dated and has been proven wrong countless times in this thread as well as history. No matter what anyone says you will not give up on your view which is perfectly fine. Beliefs are hard to change.


Marx regarded private property as the source of all evil in the emerging capitalist societies of his day. Accordingly, he believed that only by abolishing it could society’s class divisions be healed, and a harmonious future ensured. Under communism, his collaborator Friedrich Engels later claimed, the state itself would become unnecessary and ‘wither away’. These assertions were not made as speculation, but rather as scientific claims about what the future held in store.


But, of course, it was all rubbish, and Marx’s theory of history—dialectical materialism—has since been proved wrong and dangerous in practically every respect. The great 20th-century philosopher Karl Popper, one of Marx’s strongest critics, rightly called him a ‘false prophet’. And, if more evidence were needed, the countries that embraced capitalism in the 20th century went on to become democratic, open and prosperous societies.


By contrast, every regime that has rejected capitalism in the name of Marxism has failed—and not by coincidence or as a result of some unfortunate doctrinal misunderstanding on the part of Marx’s followers. By abolishing private ownership and establishing state control of the economy, one not only deprives society of the entrepreneurship needed to propel it forward; one also abolishes freedom itself.


Because Marxism treats all contradictions in society as the products of a class struggle that will disappear when private property does, dissent after the establishment of communism is impossible. By definition, any challenge to the new order must be an illegitimate remnant of the oppressive order that came before.


Remember that it was the China of pure communism that produced the famine and terror of the ‘Great Leap Forward’ and the ‘Cultural Revolution’. Mao’s decision to deprive farmers of their land and entrepreneurs of their firms had predictably disastrous results, and the Communist Party of China (CPC) has since abandoned that doctrinaire approach.


Under Mao’s successor, Deng Xiaoping, the CPC launched China’s great economic ‘opening-up’. After 1978, it began to restore private ownership and permit entrepreneurship, and the results have been nothing short of spectacular.


If China’s development is being held back by anything today, it is the remnants of Marxism that are still visible in inefficient state-owned enterprises and the repression of dissent. China’s centralised single-party system is simply incompatible with a modern and diverse soc iety
 
I don't see how you conclude that I'm pro slavery, is not just bad conclusion but distortion of what I say. The difference between slave labour and wage labour is in that the slave doesn't own his labour, the worker does. I thought you have read Marx and you understand, but it seems you haven't, so, by labour I mean labouring power or the possibility to work. In slavery or feudal relations, it was not the labourig power that was commodified, but the human, commodification of labouring power appears with capitalism. Profits are not created by the individual intervention of the capitalist but by the collective labouring process. In job market, as you call it, but actually is market of the possibility to work, you actually trade your possibility to create value and profits which the capitalist uses as resource to get profits (you have even human resource sector in all companies). In this process the labouring power becomes good that the capitalist consumes, which is bought on market, the market sets prices same as for any commodity. The labouring power in this relations gets all characteristics of a commodity, it is good to be consumed on market, there is someone who sells it, and is not payed by the value it produces (use value) but by the prices set on the market (exchange value) of jobs. Actually this process of commodification is something all liberals and right wingers ignore, and there is a reason why, liberalism as ideology comes to life from the interest of the young bourgeoisie in feudal society which yet had to be established as ruling class, it has in itself the social position of the capitalist, his approach to himself and that is why is fully individualistic. The fact that is ignored usually about USSR, SFRY and Mao's China in connection to labour is that they had no job market, job was no something you could deal with the manager, but right, the prices of job were not set by market, but by the productivity of the labour and the conditions together with the value it created. This is what made those economies not a capitalist economies (those were not communist for sure, but some form of transitional economies) and the commodification of labour what makes today China a capitalist.

When we are at facts checking... Marx's method of analyzes of history is not dialectical materialism, but historical materialism. Dialectical materialism is something different. So get your information on Marxism from another source not just from Popper. I like Popper's formal logic, nothing new in the 20 century, Lenin deals with this in "Materialism and Empirio-criticism" at time when "the great 20th-century philosopher Karl Popper" was just 6 years old... and of course Popper will reject Marxism... to expect Popper to accept Marxism is the same to expect that the salve owner would accept that colored people are humans, it goes against its interest to exploit them, as we can see from history slave owners could not accept the reality that colored people are humans even when slavery was formally ended. As Donna Haraway explains in her "Situated Knowledges" our vision of reality is always blured by the position in which we are, Popper was rich boy with interest to keep private property to ensure his position in society. We can continue this subject also with Foucault, Walter Benjamin, Louis Althusser... maybe Zhizhek if you want, but it will still be the position of Popper as rich boy in Vienna at time when workers in Red Vienna were in power. I bet it was scary to see all those workers coming for what you have robbed them...

You claim that Engels, wrote that in communism "the state itself would become unnecessary and ‘wither away’. These assertions were not made as speculation, but rather as scientific claims about what the future held in store" to later say "China of pure communism that produced the famine and terror of the ‘Great Leap Forward’ and the ‘Cultural Revolution’". So there is contradiction even in formal logic here, or Engels was wrong, or China never have been in "pure communism"... and I don't remember that Mao ever stated that China is communist... this "dilema" becomes obvious when you see that not a single Marxist claimed that any country was communist, if this is untrue I'll be glad to be provided with the Marxist who claimed that. It is a question of switching theses, same as Popper does to protect his rich ass from the workers gaining power in Vienna...

See, this is what you don't understand about dialectical materialism, not historical, dialectical... things develop in contradictions as unity of opposites, not in a linear manner. What at certain point opens possibilities, at other point becomes obstacle. China's total debt is quite big, and what enabled China to restart production faster than EU or US is the control the state had on production, so I'm not so sure which is plus which minus in the story... but anyway China's economy is not so stable without growth and expansion of the market (which is characteristic of capitalist economy), so lets not rush in conclusions for which even the CP of China doesn't have such optimistic views...

Ok, this "inefficient state-owned enterprises" has already become false argument... Look at the British Railways and studies on them... what is the measure for efficiency? Profits? Of course you will have more profits when you make the service more expensive and at the same time cut spending making the service with lass quality... but the question remains, what is efficiency? What use do people have from the profits if the service is with lower quality for more money? Abstractions of pure economist position...

Yet another mistake... "Marx regarded private property as the source of all evil in the emerging capitalist societies of his day." Marx doesn't deals with moral questions of good and evil. Second, Marx, later Engels, claim that private property is result of the division of labour and the bases for the creation of the state in certain historical times, not in capitalism, and as such is not eternal, it will stop to exist when the material conditions for its existence will no longer exist. There is no religious morality there, just observation and analyzes of haw and why private property had appeared and which relations with it were brought to existence, such as oppression and the family together with the conditions which force people in to action to protect their lives. And this is not dialectical, but historical materialism...
 
All I can say is it's good to have hopes and dreams .You keep on waiting for that revolution if it makes you happy .You will be an old man in a bar 30 years from now talking about the same thing . And it still will not have happened.

If you prove me that reform is possible in times of crisis, I'll stop being Marxist right away... but unfortunately although reform it looks easier to accomplish is impossible, is good hope to think is possible, but it won't change nothing, and I think people are quite tiered to wait for politicians to make life better. This is a recepie for mass anger eruption, or revolution (as we saw it with BLM)...
 
If you prove me that reform is possible in times of crisis, I'll stop being Marxist right away... but unfortunately although reform it looks easier to accomplish is impossible, is good hope to think is possible, but it won't change nothing, and I think people are quite tiered to wait for politicians to make life better. This is a recepie for mass anger eruption, or revolution (as we saw it with BLM)...
Our history in America is full of reform in times of crisis. Our civil rights movement , labor movement, women's rights movement, gay rights movement all came about during times of crisis either political , social or both .The 50 's 60's and 70's were one big crisis after another. And at no point did the masses rise up and embrace communism.And they will not now. Sure there have been communists involved in our social movements but they were never the catalyst.And will not be now. I have no desire to change your mind about Marxism.You are free to believe an outdated ideology if you wish . You keep mentioning BLM.They are not a Marxist group.The right calls them that as they have called every social reform group for the past 100 years .You apparently believe it. Which shows despite what you claim you are definitely influenced by the media.
 
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