The gun debate. Let's do it

johndath

johndath

Member
FCN Regular
So I'm going to try and not throw an all out opinion. But me being a gunsmith, I'm comfortable saying that I have a lot of knowledge on the subject. So I'm going to just answer questions. This includes questions about gun laws, the different type of guns, gun myths, gun history, ect. Also bare in mind, on the subject of gun laws. Gun laws vary from state to state, I live in Oregon so I know more about the guns laws in Oregon but I also looked into the gun laws in California (Its a big YIKES)

Only other thing I gotta say is keep the thread on topic and keep it civil.
 
I absolutely support the 2nd amendment (i own 2 myself). America is a fucking shitshow when it comes to firearms regulations. That's my impression at least. I believe the NRA holds way too much power. I think some states like California likely go too far. Also common sense enforcement on the part of the federal government is surprisingly ineffective.

For
 
I hear a lot of people say that the 2nd amendment is pretty much useless/outdated, but hasn't it been updated 17 times in the past 250 years?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's original intention was to give civilians the right to have guns outside the military... because a couple centuries ago British invaders would storm into the houses of civilions and threaten or harm them with their weapons.. so they made the law so civilians had protection against them.
But the law remains today because it's literally in the bill of rights and it's there for self defense... yes?
Edit: autocorrect corrections
 
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Princxss0805 said:
I hear a lot of people say that the 2nd amendment is pretty much useless/outdated, but hasn't it been updated 17 times in the past 250 years?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's original intention was to give civilians the right to have guns outside the military... because a couple centuries ago British invaders would storm into the houses of civilions and threaten or harm them with their weapons.. so they made the law so civilians had protection against them.
But the law remains today because it's literally in the bill of rights and it's there for self defense... yes?
Edit: autocorrect corrections
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The 2nd amendment hasn't been updated officially atleast. The ATF (Despite the ATF not being able to effect the gun laws themselves) and a few states are constantly changing their own gun laws. Theres was a huge thing over pistol braces and whether the should be legal or if they make your AR-15 an "short barreled rifle" which is considered a NFA item, which means you need a federal firearms license to own. I also remember a state judge in California lifted a ban on High capacity magazine (magazine's that hold more than 10rds). So while the 2nd amendment doesn't really get directly touched. Gun laws do change more often on the state (and I guess agency ) level.
 
I think we do need gun control though tbh, and that's because gun violence is a big issue in the US. I do know that gun violence can't be eliminated simply by implementing gun control laws, but I feel it would strongly decrease the frequency of gun violence. I know people who have been threatened with illegally obtained weapons and people threatened or slaughtered by legal weapons as well.

I think the total elimination of guns is unfair, as self defense is needed for those who are disabled and live in isolated/rural areas, high crime rate areas, and those who have MAJOR safety threats present in their lives, such as stalkers or legitimate death threats. So I think gun control is a much more fair answer than gun elimination.

Gun control is there to prevent gun violence and suicide victims, but not eliminate it. And America has a BIG gun violence problem.
 
Princxss0805 said:
I think we do need gun control though tbh, and that's because gun violence is a big issue in the US. I do know that gun violence can't be eliminated simply by implementing gun control laws, but I feel it would strongly decrease the frequency of gun violence. I know people who have been threatened with illegally obtained weapons and people threatened or slaughtered by legal weapons as well.

I think the total elimination of guns is unfair, as self defense is needed for those who are disabled and live in isolated/rural areas, high crime rate areas, and those who have MAJOR safety threats present in their lives, such as stalkers or legitimate death threats. So I think gun control is a much more fair answer than gun elimination.

Gun control is there to prevent gun violence and suicide victims, but not eliminate it. And America has a BIG gun violence problem.
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A good first step i feel would be to create a middle ground organization juxtaposed to the NRA. Sort of an ASPCA to PETA. Way too much influence on politics.

Even better, just get money out of politics... lol good one i know
 
Princxss0805 said:
I hear a lot of people say that the 2nd amendment is pretty much useless/outdated, but hasn't it been updated 17 times in the past 250 years?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's original intention was to give civilians the right to have guns outside the military... because a couple centuries ago British invaders would storm into the houses of civilions and threaten or harm them with their weapons.. so they made the law so civilians had protection against them.
But the law remains today because it's literally in the bill of rights and it's there for self defense... yes?
Edit: autocorrect corrections
Click to expand...

I think the main purpose of the 2A was to form a militia as a deterrent against a possible tyrannical government. Also "British Invaders"?...if you're talking about the Revolution technically we were just trying to suppress a revolution on our own turf. And if you're talking 1812...you're the ones who declared war and attacked us so jokes on you.
Sorry i'm British and very protective xD
 
CyberGuy69 said:
I think the main purpose of the 2A was to form a militia as a deterrent against a possible tyrannical government. Also "British Invaders"?...if you're talking about the Revolution technically we were just trying to suppress a revolution on our own turf. And if you're talking 1812...you're the ones who declared war and attacked us so jokes on you.
Sorry i'm British and very protective xD
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Lol, this comment confused the shit out of me so I'm just gonna assume I was wrong about SOMETHING there as I expected, since the Bill of Rights came AFTER 1776...
But then again, world history courses in the UK are different from ones in America.
I'm pretty sure I passed high school world history with a low grade anyways, LMAO.
 
The thing that most people don't get is that this is not a one size fits all solution. Big cities have issues that need solutions that my town of 500 do not need. I hear gun fire from my house, none of it is dangerous and it is legal. Downtown Chicago is different. Crime is different from where I live. I can't see a house from mine and gun violence is a non issue. Sure, if we took all guns away, if it was possible, gun violence would cease to exist. The same as if we took all vehicles away there would be no car theft. But that is not an answer. Punishment for gun crimes should be much stronger. Much of the murder rate is drug related crime and we are not even really trying to stop that. Politicians suck and really should not be relied on to fix anything. If they do it was an accident.
 
Teamster145 said:
The thing that most people don't get is that this is not a one size fits all solution. Big cities have issues that need solutions that my town of 500 do not need. I hear gun fire from my house, none of it is dangerous and it is legal. Downtown Chicago is different. Crime is different from where I live. I can't see a house from mine and gun violence is a non issue. Sure, if we took all guns away, if it was possible, gun violence would cease to exist. The same as if we took all vehicles away there would be no car theft. But that is not an answer. Punishment for gun crimes should be much stronger. Much of the murder rate is drug related crime and we are not even really trying to stop that. Politicians suck and really should not be relied on to fix anything. If they do it was an accident.
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For real! Imagine if we had Japan's gun violence sentencing. Murder with a gun is like trying to set off a nuclear bomb over there. Armed robbery is essentially a life sentence if I'm not mistaken. I guess murder/ suicide rates would stay the same though lol.
 
NJguy86 said:
For real! Imagine if we had Japan's gun violence sentencing. Murder with a gun is like trying to set off a nuclear bomb over there. Armed robbery is essentially a life sentence if I'm not mistaken. I guess murder/ suicide rates would stay the same though lol.
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There would be less for sure, no repeat offenders. I get so tired of hearing about people who have been turds and in and out of prison doing more bad things.
 
So this is my take on it. I firmly believe that it is the right of the individual (you) to defend themselves and they're home as they see fit. Whether it be with a gun, hands, pepper spray or an oversized dildo. That being said guns are incredibly dangerous and require a good amount of responsibility. They shouldn't be feared either. Guns are a tool/weapon that should be respected.

The reality is that gun laws do exist but none of them are really well balanced. They're either too stricted or too lose depending on the state you live in.

I would say the best way to handle gun control is to handle guns the same as cars, they are both equally dangerous. Have to where you need to have a license to conceal/carry. Some states are already have that law but you have to get them approved by the county sheriff (That's how it is in Oregon atleast) and that can be lengthy process. Getting a CCW permit should be as easy as getting a drivers license. So long as you can pass a written test on basic gun safety that proves your competent enough to own a firearm.

Also if you want to be able to own full auto weapons you should have to take a specific written and live fire test that proves that you can handle a fully automatic firearm. Just like if you wanted to drive a Big rig or any other vehicle that requires a CDL. Granted licensing for NFA items is a thing but it's also a huge and constant hassle. Not to mention you're put on a almost permanent watch list.
 
Only law enforcement officials should be allowed to legally possess and own a firearm or firearms.
 
The gun problem goes far beyond the legalities or various jurisdictions, imo. I believe nobody should be allowed to "conceal carry" a hand gun of any kind legally. A legal carry permit should mean the gun is visible. Whether it be police, armed security, military, border guard or whatever. I honestly don't think any private citizen needs to be walking the streets with a gun, ever and especially hidden under their jacket or whatever. That is just my opinion as an outsider, however. Having said that, the amount of illegal guns is a far greater problem in the U.S. As well as the mental health issues that seem to be largely ignored. And, of course, this notion that somehow, these guns that are made specifically for killing people should be included under some giant blanket with a hunting rifle or shotgun. I know the argument is always that you can kill people with a 30.06 hunting rifle and yes it has happened. But it seems far too many mass shootings involve full auto converted assault rifles in the hands of mentally disturbed people. That's just my 2 cents on the matter. Honestly, I doubt things will ever get a lot better. The sheer volume of guns out in the U.S. is far too many to ever get the genie back in the bottle.
 
Peacecountry said:
The gun problem goes far beyond the legalities or various jurisdictions, imo. I believe nobody should be allowed to "conceal carry" a hand gun of any kind legally. A legal carry permit should mean the gun is visible. Whether it be police, armed security, military, border guard or whatever. I honestly don't think any private citizen needs to be walking the streets with a gun, ever and especially hidden under their jacket or whatever. That is just my opinion as an outsider, however. Having said that, the amount of illegal guns is a far greater problem in the U.S. As well as the mental health issues that seem to be largely ignored. And, of course, this notion that somehow, these guns that are made specifically for killing people should be included under some giant blanket with a hunting rifle or shotgun. I know the argument is always that you can kill people with a 30.06 hunting rifle and yes it has happened. But it seems far too many mass shootings involve full auto converted assault rifles in the hands of mentally disturbed people. That's just my 2 cents on the matter. Honestly, I doubt things will ever get a lot better. The sheer volume of guns out in the U.S. is far too many to ever get the genie back in the bottle.
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So what I can tell you is that they're are real self defense benefits to conceal carrying a handgun. The biggest being that it doesn't worry anyone else and doesn't draw attention. The second is you have a sort of element of suprise, and if you're in a situation if you time your draw right you can get the drop on an attacker.

The second thing is everyone is built different and everyone lives in different environments. I personally believe its up to the individual to decide how best to protect themselves. And the AR-15 has a lot going as a defense weapon. And AR-15s can make great hunting rifles if built right but that's beside the point.

I personally own a AR-15 but it's not built for hunting. My AR-15 is built to kick ass would be the best way to put it. And the reason I have it is just incase there's a situation where the extra firepower will help. I never had to use it yet but there was a few times where things weren't stable in my area and people were being terrible. I have needed my handgun more than I like to admit. Fortunately I never had to shoot anyone. But I can promise if I didn't have. I and a few other people I know would be dead or worst. So I'm just a little biased with topic just because I've had some experiences where having my handgun really saved the day for me.
 
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johndath said:
So what I can tell you is that they're are real self defense benefits to conceal carrying a handgun. The biggest being that it doesn't worry anyone else and doesn't draw attention. The second is you have a sort of element of suprise, and if you're in a situation if you time your draw right you can get the drop on an attacker.

The second thing is everyone is built different and everyone lives in different environments. I personally believe its up to the individual to decide how best to protect themselves. And the AR-15 has a lot going as a defense weapon. And AR-15s can make great hunting rifles if built right but that's beside the point.

I personally own a AR-15 but it's not built for hunting. My AR-15 is built to kick ass would be the best way to put it. And the reason I have it is just incase there's a situation where the extra firepower will help. I never had to use it yet but there was a few times where things weren't stable in my area and people were being terrible. I have needed my handgun more than I like to admit. Fortunately I never had to shoot anyone. But I can promise if I didn't have. I and a few other people I know would be dead or worst. So I'm just a little biased with topic just because I've had some experiences where having my handgun really saved the day for me.
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Fair enough. Obviously, there are areas where it plays a factor in giving a person the illusion of security and you are clearly in an area where it seems there is a lot more violence. I think you also point out the biggest thing about gun ownership and that is being responsible with them. As you said, you haven't had to shoot anyone yet which shows you didn't just start blasting wildly in a situation. I don't think that can be said for everyone though. I think far too many people aren't adequately taught the proper way to handle and use weapons and don't know how to deal with intense situations. I think they might tend to think they are Rambo or some shit and start shooting wildly which inevitably would lead to worsening a lot of situations. I don't really know the answers. I've never owned guns nor needed to. Of course, mostly living in smaller cities in Canada, my situation has never called for it. Even when i have lived in bigger places and there has been problems, nobody has ever tried to fuck with me so I guess I've been lucky. It's not like I intimidate anyone physically either but I also am not afraid of anything either. I did live in Tacoma Wa for a few years but was a mile or so away from the bad stuff so although I heard the gunfire and cops sometimes, it never hit too closed to home. Even there, the most I had was a Louisville slugger and didn't feel the need to arm myself. Anyway, hope things can somehow get better where you are and take care of yourself.
 
Peacecountry said:
Fair enough. Obviously, there are areas where it plays a factor in giving a person the illusion of security and you are clearly in an area where it seems there is a lot more violence. I think you also point out the biggest thing about gun ownership and that is being responsible with them. As you said, you haven't had to shoot anyone yet which shows you didn't just start blasting wildly in a situation. I don't think that can be said for everyone though. I think far too many people aren't adequately taught the proper way to handle and use weapons and don't know how to deal with intense situations. I think they might tend to think they are Rambo or some shit and start shooting wildly which inevitably would lead to worsening a lot of situations. I don't really know the answers. I've never owned guns nor needed to. Of course, mostly living in smaller cities in Canada, my situation has never called for it. Even when i have lived in bigger places and there has been problems, nobody has ever tried to fuck with me so I guess I've been lucky. It's not like I intimidate anyone physically either but I also am not afraid of anything either. I did live in Tacoma Wa for a few years but was a mile or so away from the bad stuff so although I heard the gunfire and cops sometimes, it never hit too closed to home. Even there, the most I had was a Louisville slugger and didn't feel the need to arm myself. Anyway, hope things can somehow get better where you are and take care of yourself.
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Oh I'm perfectly fine where am I now. The concern is appreciated I suppose

But the stands that I believe everyone has the right to defend themselves how they see fit. You mentioned you had a baseball bat for home defense. And if that works for you, then I support %110. But everyone is built differently and firearms are a very viable defense weapon. That being said there's all kinds of different guns that have they're own pro's and cons. A lot of people say "Just buy a shotgun or handgun" But shotguns and handguns are very difficult and just might not work for some people. Just like someone might not be strong enough to swing a baseball bat.

And most people don't need to have police training levels (Although the police are really terrible shots to be honest and in some areas the police are just outright useless) But at the very least a person should know basic gun safety rules and have a decent understanding of how to shoot properly maybe. I do know that in some states in the U.S a person is required to have a permit to be able to conceal carry a pistol in public, which I support. However getting a conceal carry permit should be as easy and accessible as getting a drivers license.
 
@johndath thanks for the response. I do agree with what you said about most police being bad shots regardless of their training but I think a lot of that goes to how truly difficult it is to fire a gun at another person by a great many of us. And also, the training should be less about aim and knowing how to judge when it is absolutely necessary to actually use the weapon. It seems people ( some cops included) think it's like some action movie but real life is vastly different. And frankly, most notions of training are seriously not nearly thorough enough. That goes for any training or teaching though and most of what we truly learn is based on our experience moreso than a controlled environment.
I completely get having a weapon close by in your home for protection and totally support that. I just can never get on board with large amounts of citizens walking around the streets armed and ready. That, imo only mind you, is not about protection but about aggression. It's a thin line, I know, but too many mistakes can and often do happen. People, by in large, are really not very smart and when the adrenaline kicks in, rational thought is harder to maintain. Your last sentence there. Did you mean it "shouldn't" be as easy to get a conceal permit as a driver's license? You typed should but I think I'm understanding you right.
I know we can debate the pros and cons of guns forever but honestly, it's kind of a moot point. I doubt any meaningful change will ever happen because like everything else political, people are too divided.
 
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